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| AN INTERVIEW WITH |
| TONY BENN - PAGE 1 (OF 5) |
Q : In your speeches you suggest that the political situation in Britain is now rather like the 19th Century. Whigs and
Tories against each other in Parliament but idealogically the same and the people agitating outside against both.
How confident are you that the Labour Party can regain its potential as a radical force?
TB : Well I don’t know, I can’t say what’s going to happen in the future. Journalists always ask me and
I always say that your job is to predict the future and my job is to influence it, which is much more interesting. But it
is true, that every government in the world whether parliamentary democracy or any other system has gotto conform
now to what is in effect a world government made up of unelected people; the IMF is unelected and has enormous
power, the world bank is unelected, the European Commission is unelected, the multi national corporations are very
powerful and have no democratic basis and so that puts pressure on governments and the result is the guys at the
top get closer and closer together. If you look at Germany now, Merkel, who is Germany’s Mrs Thatcher has
done a coalition with Schroeder who is supposed to be social democrat. In America, Kerry and Bush. If you look at
Italy Berlusconi and Prodi had a bitter conflict and then at the end when Berlusconi thought he might have lost he
said lets have a coalition. You can’t divide Blair and Cameron really.
So I think that this is the framework by which governments operate and as a result of which the media who are all
imbedded correspondents who go to Number 10 and are told what to say and come out and say it. The media and
political establishment are getting further and further apart from people because people now feel we are being
managed and not represented. That is really the answer to your question.
So how do you deal with it? Well you bring more and more pressure from the bottom on the guys in power and thatâ
€™s what happened in the 19th Century. They didn’t want to concede change but they had to to avoid
revolution. They didn’t want to concede the vote but they had to to avoid trouble. They didn’t want
women to have the vote but they had to. So I think there is a re-run in a way of the 19th Century story and thatâ
€™s the reason you ask the question.
Q : I know you go canvassing for Labour for your son Hilary in Leeds and the party also asked you to do some
telephone canvassing..
TB : Yes, in the last election. Well, I did go to a lot of constituencies in the last election, I forget how many, about
14. I’m a Labour guy and it’s part of your earlier question, if the Labour Party disappeared you’d have
to recreate something representing the interests we represent. So in that sense I’ve been in the Labour Party
since 1942 and I intend to die in it but not immediately. It’s never been a socialist party but it has always had
socialists in it and I’m a socialist in the Labour Party. I’ve seen it swing from Left to Right so often in my
lifetime so I haven’t given up hope.
Q : What do you say to people who would be drawn to Old Labour policies who now vote Liberal Democrat or
Green?
TB : I always say to them you have to make up your own mind, it’s a free country. And I can see the case of
tactical voting if by voting Lib Dem you keep the Tory out, I see the case for it. But politics isn’t just what
happens on polling day and when people write to me and say I’ve torn up my Labour Party card I say thanks for
letting me know, what else are you doing? Are you campaigning for peace or the environment? On third world
development or helping the pensioners or helping the students? I think at the moment, this is where all my effort
goes now, it’s helping to create,by education and meetings and writing and lecturing and so on, create a body of
opinion so strong that nobody could disregard it. Neither Blair nor Cameron and I think that’s what needs to be
done. But it is a secret ballot, people make up their mind what they do, if I say it’s for you to decide but what
are you doing the rest of the time, you’re in a different ball game
Q : I’ve seen various speakers over the last 10 years or so, Arthur Scargill for SLP, Dave Nellist for Socialist
Alliance, George Galloway for Respect all launching a new left party, I feel they are heading into a dead end.
TB : I’ve looked up how many socialist parties there are. The Socialist Party, the socialist Labour Party, the
Socialist Workers Party, the SPGB, Scottish Socialist Party, the Communist Party, the Communist Party (Marxist
Leninist), there are too many socialist parties and not enough socialists. I think what they do is contribute to the
educational debate but when Arthur puts up a candidate against Dave Nellist or whoever, that’s ridiculous. I
think they waste their effort, they should put their effort into the campaigns. I will go and speak at any meeting
where I agree, with peace, trade union rights whether I’m talking to communists, I don’t care because I agree
with the issues. So that’s the way I’ve overcome that difficulty for myself.
Q : Is there a point in trying to persuade people in these groups that their time would be better spent within the
Labour Party?
TB : You have to be respectful of other peoples opinions and decisions. Also recognise in tactical voting, if you
could vote for somebody else and keep a Tory out, you understand the reason for it. But politics isn’t just about
one cross every five years, it’s about much more than that.
Q: There is an old saying that the worst Labour government is still better than the best Conservative government. Is
that true even for New Labour?
TB : I think that’s broadly true, it is true. But if you look back, Winston Churchill nationalised the Anglo Persian
oil company in 1914, he was an old imperialist but on domestic affairs he was well to the left of New Labour. So
was Ted Heath. The truth is that political parties are not just made up of their leaders, it’s the interests they
represent. The interests represented by the Tory Party are broadly hostile to the interests that I represent so I would
never say that there wasn’t much difference. I’ve seen the Labour Party swing from Left to Right so many
times. I mean Callaghan followed policies that I didn’t agree with but I was in his cabinet but then it comes back
again because I think it’s the first time in my life where the public are to the left of what’s called a Labour
government, they don’t was privatisation, they don’t want war, they don’t want pensioners on a means
test, they don’t want students saddled with debt.
In your book ‘Arguments for Socialism’ back in 1979, the basic premise was that the British public faced three
different options; Monetarism, Corporatism and Democratic Socialism. Is that still basically the question?
TB : Blair is a sort of corporatist/capitalist. Mussolini once said that you shouldn’t call it fascism you should call
it corporatism because what I’m doing he said, was working with Big Business, I’m not drawing a loose
parrallel but the idea that people should have some power themselves has always been controversial. The guys at
the top never like democracy despite what they say about going to Iraq, they don’t like democracy. The reason
for that is because democracy transfers power from the market place to the polling station, from the wallet to the
ballot and privatisation puts it back again, away from the polling station and back to the market. That use of
democracy is not acceptable to power. Hitler said in Mein Kamf, an extraordinary phrase which I have cos I bought it
aged 11, he said ‘democracy inevitably leads to Marxism‘, you work that out. What he meant was that if
people have the vote, they’ll challenge the people with wealth.
Q : Around the time of ‘Arguments for Socialism’, the left had a very definite agenda and a clear set of
alternative policies, the alternative economic strategy for example. Is today’s left weakened by not having such
a concrete set of proposals?
TB : No I think not. The Labour Representation Committee which I recommended in 1981, after I was defeated and
which has now been brought into being, they have a conference on the 22nd July, they’ve re-established links
with the trade unions, there are committees now between some Labour MP’s and all trade unions bringing their
issues up in Parliament & I think if you look at globalisation and the war and so on, but of course the idea of having a
specific manifesto to put forward, we have the elements of a manifesto but we’re not in a position to say the
Labour Party will do this because we are a minority in the Labour Party or we’re in a fringe party.
Q : When anyone criticises New Labour from the left, Gordon Brown always points to his record on unemployment
as a success. What do you make of that?
TB : Gordon inherited an economy which was recovering from the Thatcherite depression and he’s followed a
very strict policy in line with the City of London, there has been an element of growth, unemployment has fallen,
there is a minimum wage though it’s very low. I don’t want to belittle the achievements of a Labour
chancellor who’s managed after 10 years to avoid an economic crisis which we had regularly. At the same time,
he is New Labour. Him and Mandelson and Blair invented New Labour and although his roots are in the Labour
Party , which isn’t true of the other two, and I think he has got real roots, the policies that he follows are policies
of market forces, globalisation and all the rest of it. I don’t think there would be a great deal of difference except
that all leaders respond to the pressures and I think the pressures now of war and various other things are so strong
that no Labour prime minister would be able to avoid having to deal with them. But they’ll be an election I
presume when Blair goes,
Q : You wouldn't give your preference of a candidate?
TB : We don’t know who they are, names come up, John Reid’s name, Milburn, Miliband, Meacher, Dobson
and I don’t know who they’ll be but someone will try and get nominated to put forward an alternative point of
view.
Tories against each other in Parliament but idealogically the same and the people agitating outside against both.
How confident are you that the Labour Party can regain its potential as a radical force?
TB : Well I don’t know, I can’t say what’s going to happen in the future. Journalists always ask me and
I always say that your job is to predict the future and my job is to influence it, which is much more interesting. But it
is true, that every government in the world whether parliamentary democracy or any other system has gotto conform
now to what is in effect a world government made up of unelected people; the IMF is unelected and has enormous
power, the world bank is unelected, the European Commission is unelected, the multi national corporations are very
powerful and have no democratic basis and so that puts pressure on governments and the result is the guys at the
top get closer and closer together. If you look at Germany now, Merkel, who is Germany’s Mrs Thatcher has
done a coalition with Schroeder who is supposed to be social democrat. In America, Kerry and Bush. If you look at
Italy Berlusconi and Prodi had a bitter conflict and then at the end when Berlusconi thought he might have lost he
said lets have a coalition. You can’t divide Blair and Cameron really.
So I think that this is the framework by which governments operate and as a result of which the media who are all
imbedded correspondents who go to Number 10 and are told what to say and come out and say it. The media and
political establishment are getting further and further apart from people because people now feel we are being
managed and not represented. That is really the answer to your question.
So how do you deal with it? Well you bring more and more pressure from the bottom on the guys in power and thatâ
€™s what happened in the 19th Century. They didn’t want to concede change but they had to to avoid
revolution. They didn’t want to concede the vote but they had to to avoid trouble. They didn’t want
women to have the vote but they had to. So I think there is a re-run in a way of the 19th Century story and thatâ
€™s the reason you ask the question.
Q : I know you go canvassing for Labour for your son Hilary in Leeds and the party also asked you to do some
telephone canvassing..
TB : Yes, in the last election. Well, I did go to a lot of constituencies in the last election, I forget how many, about
14. I’m a Labour guy and it’s part of your earlier question, if the Labour Party disappeared you’d have
to recreate something representing the interests we represent. So in that sense I’ve been in the Labour Party
since 1942 and I intend to die in it but not immediately. It’s never been a socialist party but it has always had
socialists in it and I’m a socialist in the Labour Party. I’ve seen it swing from Left to Right so often in my
lifetime so I haven’t given up hope.
Q : What do you say to people who would be drawn to Old Labour policies who now vote Liberal Democrat or
Green?
TB : I always say to them you have to make up your own mind, it’s a free country. And I can see the case of
tactical voting if by voting Lib Dem you keep the Tory out, I see the case for it. But politics isn’t just what
happens on polling day and when people write to me and say I’ve torn up my Labour Party card I say thanks for
letting me know, what else are you doing? Are you campaigning for peace or the environment? On third world
development or helping the pensioners or helping the students? I think at the moment, this is where all my effort
goes now, it’s helping to create,by education and meetings and writing and lecturing and so on, create a body of
opinion so strong that nobody could disregard it. Neither Blair nor Cameron and I think that’s what needs to be
done. But it is a secret ballot, people make up their mind what they do, if I say it’s for you to decide but what
are you doing the rest of the time, you’re in a different ball game
Q : I’ve seen various speakers over the last 10 years or so, Arthur Scargill for SLP, Dave Nellist for Socialist
Alliance, George Galloway for Respect all launching a new left party, I feel they are heading into a dead end.
TB : I’ve looked up how many socialist parties there are. The Socialist Party, the socialist Labour Party, the
Socialist Workers Party, the SPGB, Scottish Socialist Party, the Communist Party, the Communist Party (Marxist
Leninist), there are too many socialist parties and not enough socialists. I think what they do is contribute to the
educational debate but when Arthur puts up a candidate against Dave Nellist or whoever, that’s ridiculous. I
think they waste their effort, they should put their effort into the campaigns. I will go and speak at any meeting
where I agree, with peace, trade union rights whether I’m talking to communists, I don’t care because I agree
with the issues. So that’s the way I’ve overcome that difficulty for myself.
Q : Is there a point in trying to persuade people in these groups that their time would be better spent within the
Labour Party?
TB : You have to be respectful of other peoples opinions and decisions. Also recognise in tactical voting, if you
could vote for somebody else and keep a Tory out, you understand the reason for it. But politics isn’t just about
one cross every five years, it’s about much more than that.
Q: There is an old saying that the worst Labour government is still better than the best Conservative government. Is
that true even for New Labour?
TB : I think that’s broadly true, it is true. But if you look back, Winston Churchill nationalised the Anglo Persian
oil company in 1914, he was an old imperialist but on domestic affairs he was well to the left of New Labour. So
was Ted Heath. The truth is that political parties are not just made up of their leaders, it’s the interests they
represent. The interests represented by the Tory Party are broadly hostile to the interests that I represent so I would
never say that there wasn’t much difference. I’ve seen the Labour Party swing from Left to Right so many
times. I mean Callaghan followed policies that I didn’t agree with but I was in his cabinet but then it comes back
again because I think it’s the first time in my life where the public are to the left of what’s called a Labour
government, they don’t was privatisation, they don’t want war, they don’t want pensioners on a means
test, they don’t want students saddled with debt.
In your book ‘Arguments for Socialism’ back in 1979, the basic premise was that the British public faced three
different options; Monetarism, Corporatism and Democratic Socialism. Is that still basically the question?
TB : Blair is a sort of corporatist/capitalist. Mussolini once said that you shouldn’t call it fascism you should call
it corporatism because what I’m doing he said, was working with Big Business, I’m not drawing a loose
parrallel but the idea that people should have some power themselves has always been controversial. The guys at
the top never like democracy despite what they say about going to Iraq, they don’t like democracy. The reason
for that is because democracy transfers power from the market place to the polling station, from the wallet to the
ballot and privatisation puts it back again, away from the polling station and back to the market. That use of
democracy is not acceptable to power. Hitler said in Mein Kamf, an extraordinary phrase which I have cos I bought it
aged 11, he said ‘democracy inevitably leads to Marxism‘, you work that out. What he meant was that if
people have the vote, they’ll challenge the people with wealth.
Q : Around the time of ‘Arguments for Socialism’, the left had a very definite agenda and a clear set of
alternative policies, the alternative economic strategy for example. Is today’s left weakened by not having such
a concrete set of proposals?
TB : No I think not. The Labour Representation Committee which I recommended in 1981, after I was defeated and
which has now been brought into being, they have a conference on the 22nd July, they’ve re-established links
with the trade unions, there are committees now between some Labour MP’s and all trade unions bringing their
issues up in Parliament & I think if you look at globalisation and the war and so on, but of course the idea of having a
specific manifesto to put forward, we have the elements of a manifesto but we’re not in a position to say the
Labour Party will do this because we are a minority in the Labour Party or we’re in a fringe party.
Q : When anyone criticises New Labour from the left, Gordon Brown always points to his record on unemployment
as a success. What do you make of that?
TB : Gordon inherited an economy which was recovering from the Thatcherite depression and he’s followed a
very strict policy in line with the City of London, there has been an element of growth, unemployment has fallen,
there is a minimum wage though it’s very low. I don’t want to belittle the achievements of a Labour
chancellor who’s managed after 10 years to avoid an economic crisis which we had regularly. At the same time,
he is New Labour. Him and Mandelson and Blair invented New Labour and although his roots are in the Labour
Party , which isn’t true of the other two, and I think he has got real roots, the policies that he follows are policies
of market forces, globalisation and all the rest of it. I don’t think there would be a great deal of difference except
that all leaders respond to the pressures and I think the pressures now of war and various other things are so strong
that no Labour prime minister would be able to avoid having to deal with them. But they’ll be an election I
presume when Blair goes,
Q : You wouldn't give your preference of a candidate?
TB : We don’t know who they are, names come up, John Reid’s name, Milburn, Miliband, Meacher, Dobson
and I don’t know who they’ll be but someone will try and get nominated to put forward an alternative point of
view.
| Below is the transcipt of an interview held with Tony Benn on 26th May 2006. From the time spent, I realised 3 main points. Mr Benn much prefers to talk about the key political issues of the present and future rather than dwell on the past and the 'what ifs'. Avoiding talk of what might have happened then and focusing on how we can shape what's to come. The second point is that when he stresses the need to avoid personalising the politics, he genuinely means it. Lastly, if you're looking for Mr Benn to be a leader, then you're going to be disappointed. He refers to himself as 'an untrained classroom assistant to the nation'. All his thoughts inevitably return to a central tenet, that if things are going to change, it cannot come from the top down but from the people themselves. I would like to thank Tony Benn for his kindness and generous giving of his time. |
| This is an extensive interview, if you would like a copy in microsoft word then email thebennites@yahoo.co.uk |