| . |
| www.tonybenn.net |
| AN INTERVIEW WITH |
| ROY BAILEY |
| The Writing on the Wall |
| "That's why the arts have a larger part in political life than is normally recognised and why it's such an honour for me to come with Roy Bailey who uses the arts to inspire us. Not to have confidence in the people on the platform but to have confidence in ourselves. Because it's when we have confidence in ourselves, that things happen..." TONY BENN 1995 |
Tony Benn has described Roy Bailey as 'the greatest socialist folksinger of his
generation' and Tony Benn should know. Together they perform the hugely
successful show, 'The Writing on the Wall'. Described as an anthology of
dissent in words and music, it features Tony reading various quotations from
history punctuated by protest songs sung by Roy. I saw this performace live
in Bradford a few months back and thought it would be interesting to interview
Roy for the site to which he kindly agreed.
We met outside the Crucible theatre in Sheffield with a tea and a de-caff
coffee. Meeting an interviewee can be daunting, what questions to ask? What
small talk to make? After my first question Roy had dispelled any worries, I
certainly needn't have worried about short answers and awkward pauses.
Through the interview Roy variously described himself as a 'ranter', a 'militant
atheist' and 'an outsider'. His answers were always interesting but what you
cannot infer from the written word is how often the answers were delivered with
a grin or a laugh.
The subjects ranged from the spanish inquisiton to skiffle music to pre-christian
judea. Like many atheists, Roy seemed intensly interested in the roots of
religion and the aspects of it's history that are often not touched upon. It
was clear that though both of us were big admirers of Tony Benn, we couldn't
quite agree with everthing he says on religion.
From a musical point of view, Roy is intensely proud of his role in bringing
songs to a wider audience and to other folk artists, Billy Bragg amongst them.
He's also understanding of the position he finds himself in. Perhaps due to
the nature of his songs, he sees himself very much as an outsider to the folk
scene but part of him also regrets this. What is unique to Roy is the way that
the commercial world has yet to taint his musical stance. Roy is a purist in
the best sense of the word. He openly admits to prefering live performance to
the recorded sound and is dismissive of much of the awards and chart places
that dominate all musical genres these days. This is no sour grapes, he has
had a hugely successful career and in 2003 won a BBC folk award.
The only time Roy looked slightly uncomfortable was when he noticed that one
of my final questions was about him accepting the MBE in 2000. When talking
about this, it was almost if he was going through the decision process all over
again, weighing up whether to accept the award, he seemed to be in two minds
about it even six years later. In the end, his reasoning was genuine and so
down to earth that it made me feel slightly guilty for questioning it; it was a
good day out and a proud moment for his family. I'd much rather Roy's
approach than some kind of idealogical automaton.
Since the interview, Roy has given back his MBE in protest at the governments
stance in the middle east. It must have been another hard decision but shows
how committed Roy is to the situations he sings about.
I started off by asking him about meeting Tony Benn in 1976.
generation' and Tony Benn should know. Together they perform the hugely
successful show, 'The Writing on the Wall'. Described as an anthology of
dissent in words and music, it features Tony reading various quotations from
history punctuated by protest songs sung by Roy. I saw this performace live
in Bradford a few months back and thought it would be interesting to interview
Roy for the site to which he kindly agreed.
We met outside the Crucible theatre in Sheffield with a tea and a de-caff
coffee. Meeting an interviewee can be daunting, what questions to ask? What
small talk to make? After my first question Roy had dispelled any worries, I
certainly needn't have worried about short answers and awkward pauses.
Through the interview Roy variously described himself as a 'ranter', a 'militant
atheist' and 'an outsider'. His answers were always interesting but what you
cannot infer from the written word is how often the answers were delivered with
a grin or a laugh.
The subjects ranged from the spanish inquisiton to skiffle music to pre-christian
judea. Like many atheists, Roy seemed intensly interested in the roots of
religion and the aspects of it's history that are often not touched upon. It
was clear that though both of us were big admirers of Tony Benn, we couldn't
quite agree with everthing he says on religion.
From a musical point of view, Roy is intensely proud of his role in bringing
songs to a wider audience and to other folk artists, Billy Bragg amongst them.
He's also understanding of the position he finds himself in. Perhaps due to
the nature of his songs, he sees himself very much as an outsider to the folk
scene but part of him also regrets this. What is unique to Roy is the way that
the commercial world has yet to taint his musical stance. Roy is a purist in
the best sense of the word. He openly admits to prefering live performance to
the recorded sound and is dismissive of much of the awards and chart places
that dominate all musical genres these days. This is no sour grapes, he has
had a hugely successful career and in 2003 won a BBC folk award.
The only time Roy looked slightly uncomfortable was when he noticed that one
of my final questions was about him accepting the MBE in 2000. When talking
about this, it was almost if he was going through the decision process all over
again, weighing up whether to accept the award, he seemed to be in two minds
about it even six years later. In the end, his reasoning was genuine and so
down to earth that it made me feel slightly guilty for questioning it; it was a
good day out and a proud moment for his family. I'd much rather Roy's
approach than some kind of idealogical automaton.
Since the interview, Roy has given back his MBE in protest at the governments
stance in the middle east. It must have been another hard decision but shows
how committed Roy is to the situations he sings about.
I started off by asking him about meeting Tony Benn in 1976.
| Yes, he was an MP and I knew of him. I respected what I knew. So the opportunity to actually meet him was very exciting. We were both invited by the WEA in Oxford to go to a commemoration of the three Leveller soldiers who were shot at Burford church for refusing to go and fight in Ireland. That’s how we met. I was flattered that he liked what I was doing. It was over a space of time, it wasn't like we were immediate close friends but we did keep in touch. He lost his Bristol seat because of the change of boundaries and came to Chesterfield, just down the road from Sheffield where I live. I contacted him and said if he had anything he'd like me to do for the constituency party, I'd be very happy to do it. I used to go to occasions when he was speaking. I would listen and sometimes I'd sing a couple of songs so we established and developed a relationship in that way. I did shows during the ‘70’s and ‘80’s with Leon Rosselson and one of the shows was about Tom Paine. Leon and I were asked to do a concert by the Tom Paine society in Norwich. Tom Paine was born in Thetford. Leon wrote a show about Paine called the Liberty Tree. It was a scripted programme of words and music. We both suggested songs and I had this idea of asking Tony to be the character of Tom Paine. Whenever there was a quote from a Tom Paine speech, Tony would read that and we would read the other parts around it - newspaper cuttings, relevant poems or whatever, to do with the theme 'The Liberty Tree'. We subsequently performed it at the Purcell Rooms in London and elsewhere. It was very successful and cemented our relationship further. I later discovered his book 'The Writing on the Wall' which is an anthology of dissent dating from the 12th century. I read it and thought I know songs about these issues. So I suggested, more in hope than expectation, what about doing a joint show: an anthology of dissent in words and music. He was a little bit hesitant as you'd expect but I said let's try it. We were invited to do it at the Labour Party Conference in Brighton in 1991. This was safe ground. It was a fringe meeting. At the time I was involved with a trade union college so I used to go to the Labour Conference. He agreed. I suggested he read a selection from the book. I asked him to tell me his choices beforehand. We met, talked a bit, and I suggested an opening song -'History Lesson' by Leon which seemed a good way to frame the programme. He agreed and I used the chorus from 'Leaves from a Tree' as the introduction. It was very successful and in my view the most socialist event of the Labour conference that week! From there, the first really public one we did was in Cardiff, at The Sherman Theatre - a literary festival in 1991. It was alright but it wasn't that successful. I don't think people had any idea what to expect. The audience was completely different from the one at the Conference. They were polite. Tony commented he wasn’t sure it was going to work. I suggested we not take that performance as the measure. At that point the Crucible theatre invited us to do the show in Sheffield on the main stage, the largest auditorium, holds 1000 people. That was February 1992. It sold out. Sheffield in those days was thought of as the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire. People turned out in 100's, and it was a huge success. At the end of that show Tony was convinced we had a successful show. We've been doing it ever since, about 4 or 5 times a year, culminating in the Cambridge folk festival in 2000 where we had 9000 people on their feet cheering. A wonderful experience. That concert was recorded and hence the CD. When you first met Tony Benn, did it strike you as strange that a cabinet minister would be at an event like that? No, I don't think I did. The fact that it was Tony Benn, given his radical reputation which I knew, I can’t say I was surprised at all. In a way if any politician gets an opportunity for public exposure, as long as it's not going to be embarrassing, they will accept and in this case Tony knew there would be sympathy because of the nature of the organisation - the WEA - and the subject of the Diggers and Levellers. It didn't occur to me to be surprised. It sounds like it grew in a natural way rather than a sit down and plan it way, were there any songs that you did or wanted to do that Tony said "no, I don't like that or I don't like the lyrics to that"? There was one, only one. I think of myself as a militant atheist and I never knew quite where Tony was coming from on the religion side. I had a song of Leon’s that I'd recorded in the 70's called 'Stand Up For Judas'. It seemed to me a good, “big� song to do given the things Tony was talking about: the role of religion, the emergence of a secular socialism, rational thinking and so on. He felt uncomfortable with it. Not because he necessarily opposed the principal of the song but because he thought that it could offend people. I'm not too worried about offending people but I don't do it willfully. I knew what he meant by that. When Leon asked me to sing this song, first time he played it to me, I thought I can't sing this. However non-christian I am, non-religious I am, I am a “product� of a Christian culture, a religious culture. It revealed to me how deep that sense was, but I made myself work at it. I understood what Tony meant and I was happy to leave it out. The interesting thing about the lyrics to 'Stand Up for Judas' is that a lot of songs in your repertoire criticise organised religion but that song is specifically critical of Jesus himself, not saying organised religion is bad but Jesus is good, but is critical of the historical Jesus himself. Yes, it is but it's not just an idea of Leon's. There is a book, “Revolution in Judea� by a jewish theologian if I remember correctly, in which he discusses this period. The bible is the only record we have of the period. Nowhere in the bible does it talk about the occupation of Judea. It was an occupied country by the Romans. The Zealots were in fact the militant opponents. They actually wanted them out. They were the insurgents, the terrorists, the freedom fighters, whatever label you want to apply. But Jesus argues that although you may oppose the occupation, it's in the next world that freedom will come. In a way what the book is saying is you could interpret the philosophy and teachings of Jesus as a liberal position. This world may be terrible but if you believe in me, you'll enter the next world and it will be wonderful for eternity. What the Zealots were saying was we want it now and we want you out. The account in the bible of this time is a bit like writing a history of France in 1941 without actually mentioning that it was occupied by Germany. That was the theme of the book. When Leon read that, it prompted him to think in those terms and 'Stand Up For Judas' was the result. It is critical of Jesus because the bible tells us he claimed 'the poor are always with us', or 'give unto Caesar what is Caesars……'etc and various other teachings: 'those who are not with me are against me'. This divided families as you can imagine. What he never did was actually confront the authority of Rome and struggle to free Judea from the Roman tyranny. As I think Leon would argue, what we know about Jesus is in the Bible. We don't know anything else. It is that person he is challenging. The person as revealed there. |
| You can argue that large sections of the New Testament, the Gospels, are written with hindsight, there is no proof Jesus did or said these things anyway. That may be true, I don't know. What we do know is what's written there, it may not be true but it's the only information we have on the man. I don't think he went around doing anyone any harm, his moral position or philosophy is highly laudable. But I don’t think you have to have the religious or sacred part. You don't have to be religious to be a moral and “good person�. There seems to be a lot of atheists in the progressive movements. Yes, but there are a lot of Christians too. A lot of religious people in there too. The ones who get noticed are saying something from another viewpoint, perhaps atheists. There are nevertheless plenty of peace activists in the church. Tony's got this nice line 'there are some socialists in the Labour Party just as there are some Christians in the church'. I think that's a lovely statement. I wanted to ask you about the Abeizer Coppe song. It appeals to me that you have a swearing drinking atheist that you wouldn't normally associate with left wing songs. He was a character who came out of researching a show “Love Loneliness and Laundry� which became the name of the album. Leon wrote some songs for it. I knew about Abeizer Coppe. As a sociologist I had done some reading and teaching around the sociology of religion. I came across the concept of the “free spirit� in a book on world religions (“Catholic, Protestant, Jew� I recall). In it there is an appendix about Abeizer Coppe and the Ranters. Leon's song is a pretty accurate depiction of where Abeizer was coming from and what he represented. In that sense it is like the song 'The World Turned Upside Down', many of the words in that song are Gerard Winstanley's words. It is a powerful song, a very powerful song. As you say, Abeizer Coppe is a libertarian song. Winstanley was quite critical of Coppe, because he said the Ranter’s belief in free love for example, resulted in the women having babies. The men may be free but there are consequences. I thiknk of it as similar to the straight left and the hippy left of the sixties. It's a joyful song. It's glorious. If there is a character in a song you don't know much about, do you research it at all? Yes, I try to do that. Not always but if it's particularly significant and someone's going to ask me about it, then I need to know something. For example, I sing a song about the Inquisition – “The Burning Times�. I thought I'd better read about this. So I read a few books about it including the excellent “Dreaming the Dark� by Starhawk. Witches are still with us. Their demonisation continued into the 20th Century. People did not claim to be witches they were accused of being a witch. There is a legitimate historical debate about the number of witches burned at the stake during many centuries. The numbers cited in the song can be found in this debate. As such it is legitimate to include the number in the song. I don't claim to be an expert on all these things but I try to get a little bit of background. Is there a danger of mythologizing these characters? Bending historical figures to a modern view now? No, I'm not conscious of that. I don't think it necessarily happens. If you take someone like Abeizer Coppe, what it does is reveal a character in history with a certain philosophy which a serious student can actually study. It's not changing them, it's making them accessible. The singing of it makes it accessible. They appeal to the listener more than just intellectually, they have an emotional impact as well. That's the power of art. It's one of the reasons why the show is very effective. Tony's words are often funny and his readings are very powerful. When you add music and songs to that, people are engaged on another level. I don't think we're distorting anything. Like all historians, we select what we say, we select what we write, we select what we sing. Most of the songs I sing with a religious context tend not to be sympathetic to religion. I'm not particularly sympathetic to religion. There's nothing illegitimate about that. Somebody who disagrees simply goes elsewhere or switches me off. You don't write any songs at all? No. I might write a book. As an academic I've published papers and books. People often ask me why don’t I write songs and I don't know. It is a discipline I don't have I suppose. It requires conciseness, an ability to condense a complex issue into clear and concise words. One of the problems with academics and academic training is that every time I assert something I need a footnote to qualify it: “further research needs to be done�. I don't mean this negatively but to be a songwriter you have to be opinionated. You have to know what you want to say and commit yourself to it. I don't have that skill or disposition. I've never worked on that skill. I've worked with people who are good at it and they are writing the songs. Do they write songs specifically for you sometimes? I don't think anybody writes a song for me. I think that having written a song they might think “Roy Bailey might like that� – “Roy might be interested in this�. Leon, for example when he wrote things like 'The World Turned Upside Down', or 'Stand Up for Judas', or 'Abeizer Coppe', I was working with him so he had my vocal technique and ability and his technique and ability in his head. But I can't say it was written for me but I think that once written, it was 'how do you like this'? I have also had people jokingly complain that I don't sing their songs. Eric Bogle, from Australia, asked me why I don't sing any of his songs. “You're known to pick good songs, why none of mine?� I told him it was because he'd given them to June Tabor - the songs I would have done. So while people don't write for me, they will write a song and think I might be interested in it. Robb Johnson, Alistair Hulett, Ray Hearne and others, send me their songs asking if I am I interested in any of them? I can't say that they think “I'm going to write Roy Bailey a song�. The only person who said he would write me a song was Richard Thompson. He once, on a plane going to The Winnipeg Folk Festival in Canada said "I'll write you a song". It never happened. So I took his song 'Beeswing' and decided I'd do that. Do you ever go looking for songs? I used to. Oh yes, I've done that. When I was younger, when I was building my repertoire, I would be playing things and listening, at festivals and folk clubs. I first started listening to Robb Johnson songs when I was singing at the Claygate Folk Club and he turned up for a floor spot. He sang two or three songs and I thought that they were interesting and got chatting to him. So I was looking in that sense. I don't do that so much now. People tend to send me songs. Not just their own, sometimes other peoples. The song I do about Palestine was not sent to me by Jim Page who wrote it, but by a friend from Seattle saying she had discovered a fantastic CD. She thought I'd be interested. It knocked me out. It's a wonderful record. The best thing I've heard for a long time. It is a clear critique of American foreign policy (and by association, British foreign policy). There were three tracks particularly which I thought I could sing. Do you tend to focus and listen to just folk music as a genre? I suppose I do, yes. What other alternative did you have in mind? Well, if you take someone like Johnny Cash, his last few albums he took songs from outside of what you'd expect from him and made them his own almost. That's true. I did do a song of Elvis Costello's “Any Kings Shilling�. I recorded it some years ago. In that sense I went to a different genre. I've recorded a Bob Dylan song, 'Pawn In Their Game'. I did it completely differently, unaccompanied or “acapella� as we now say! I liked the story but didn't want to do it with a guitar. Bob Dylan did it with a guitar, I wanted to think of a way I might add something. Otherwise you might as well listen to Bob Dylan. I do it occasionally. Even those two songs, because of their development of a narrative, telling a story, are not quite in the same mould as some pop songs which can be repetitious of the same line over and over - all rhythm and arrangement. I like a story. If a song is telling a story, I don't care where it comes from as long as I like the story. Going back to when you first started playing music, you were in a skiffle group. We were all in skiffle groups. It was a bit like punk rock, everyone just picked up instruments and played. It was. Lonnie Donegan and an American group, The Weavers were recording folk songs. Donegan got in the hit parade over here. Songs like Rock Island Line. It became the popular music of the late fifties. Skiffle. It coincided with CND and an emerging social and political consciousness. Here were songs which weren't about moon and June and love and the rest of it, they were about building railways, the American war of Independence, slavery, peace, “Down by the Riverside�. I got involved with that music. That led me into folk songs. They were American folk songs, which momentarily became the popular music of the day in Britain. Through that I discovered and became part of what is known as the folk revival of the 50's and 60's. It just went on from there. I used to sing traditional English songs, Irish, Scottish, whatever, but I began to discover songs about mining, about the industrial world, of urban matters. Songs associated with Ewan Macoll and Bert Lloyd. They appealed to me. I'm not a rural person, I'm an urban man and I wanted songs that addressed things that I was familiar with rather than gamboling in the hay. That moved me to contemporary songs. My image of folk music for so long, that kind of hippy image, you seem a lot more fiery and a lot more contemporary in the songs you do. Even if it's an old song with historical content, there's still a relevance to modern themes. I have long felt an outsider in the folk world. To some extent because I've placed myself there with the repertoire I've decided to build. Maddy Prior once told me I had ploughed my own furrow. Some people dismiss it as political but that often says more about their politics than mine. What is true is that I want songs about the world in which I live and that is a world of work, of joy, of love, of hate, of war, of the current crisis, whatever the current crisis is. I want my repertoire to reflect that. To draw attention to it and make people reflect on it. I don't offer answers. I don't sing songs that say believe this and the world will be a great place, I simply challenge and stimulate. It helps provide people with a sense of solidarity - 'someone else thinks what I think'. Anonymous people, strangers in the theatre or in a concert hall, by the end of the concert, if you're clapping and cheering about the same things, then you know that you think and feel the same thing. It transforms you. You feel you are not as isolated as you may have thought. This can only happen if you can keep people’s attention. The set must be entertaining. But as I’ve said many times, you don’t have to be solemn to be serious. A confidence boost. Yes. There are lots of us. I know that because I go around the world and there are the same people everywhere I go. There are people who are interested in these issues, these struggles, these concerns. I also happen to believe they are a legitimate part of traditional folk culture. I've read you say that you knew that the style of music that you wanted to do, it wouldn't provide you with a living, it wouldn't financially support you but you almost liked that cos it meant you could just do what you wanted to do. Did you mean musically or lyrically or both? Both of those things. I was an academic and I had an income which was reasonably secure. I never had to ask myself, what do people want to hear because my mortgage etc depends on me getting a gig this week. That did give me a certain freedom. It enabled me to sing what I wanted to sing. These are things that interest me. If you want to hear it, fine. If you don't want to hear it, that’s a shame but I won't starve. I don't say that in an arrogant way. I simply enjoyed circumstances that enabled me to pursue the direction I wanted to take. It's possible that others might argue that they didn't have a separate job and they still did what they wanted to do and that may be right. But in retrospect, that's how I feel about the way I've developed, placing myself as an outsider to the mainstream. Not only the commercial music business but unfortunately also from the folk world. Some people will say to me about Billy Bragg or even Tony Benn, it's alright for them cos they don't have to worry about where their next pay cheque was coming from. The fact you were working kept your feet on The ground, a day to day life to deal with. I think it is unfair to say that about Billy or Tony. There was a period when Billy for example, was busking around trying to establish himself doing what he wanted to do. He came to Sheffield and did a show called Workers Playtime down at the steel works. It was an attempt to build a career on his own terms. Do you remember Red Wedge in the 80's? What did you make of that? I thought the intention was fine. It was an attempt, at that time, to insert a “red wedge� into popular culture. I was never part of it, I was never asked to be but also I couldn't just drop everything and go off with that. People knew that. I certainly wasn't critical of it. I'm not really critical of anybody who sings. I'd rather they be doing that than making bullets or guns. Lots of people on the folk scene, lots of people in the pop world, don't do much for me at all but they are giving enjoyment to some people otherwise they wouldn't buy their records or book them at their clubs and concerts. Who am I to deride them? Do you wish there was more lyrical content in popular music? Yes I do I suppose. There's nothing that is attracting me at the moment. Elvis Costello did for a while, I like the Beatles, I like the Rolling Stones, that's my generation, I couldn't help but be affected by them. I wished I could play rock n roll The Beatles started as a skiffle group. Yes, that's right. Was that not a road you thought about going down yourself? I sort of did get opportunities to be a pop singer when I was younger. I was invited to join a group that went on to become reasonably well known. But it wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a teacher. If someone is new to Roy Bailey, what should they get? I've no idea. If they'd heard about me and were interested, then I suppose they might dip into any CD that is currently available. Any of them is a reflection of the repertoire I do. There are, however, some tracks which are traditional tracks, which aren't representative but I think they are great songs and I wanted to record them. I would say, pick a compilation. To find out why people are reacting to me now, pick the latest release. When you do solo performances does the repertoire change from 'The Writing on the Wall'? A lot of the songs I do. 'History Lesson' I rarely do now. The Corvette Stingray song, I do occasionally. If I think I need to lighten my set I might do Corvette Stingray. As a collective repertoire, they are of that ilk but not always those particular songs. If you hear us do “Writing on the Wall� again, I might be doing different songs. A few will be different from the show you saw last month. But remember I only sing about 8 songs in the show, a solo concert usually requires more than that. The Corvette Stingray song sounds really hard to do? It's all about the punch line really. You have a momentum in a song. If a line goes, you are in danger of losing the dynamic and you've lost all that went before. You've got to start again. If you're two thirds of the way through and you can't pick it up again, that's gone. You think 'I've cocked that up'. Corvette Stingray I don't find difficult but there is a bit to do with the timing, the way you tell that story. I've heard people sing it and nobody even smiled. I like that song because the narrator is desperate to have this flashy car, it's not something you'd expect a protest singer to want. The central issue becomes the relationship between the husband and wife. The car is simply the vehicle for telling the story. (Excuse the pun!) In Abeizer Coppe, people always laugh at the line, 'women are the only heaven, marriage is the only hell'. Yes, I understand that. Don't you understand that? Yes, of course I do. I get gay people saying to me, that's not true. Sometimes if I see people in the audience who I know to be gay, I sing that line and smile at them. And marriage is always good for a laugh! You much prefer live performance to recordings. I do. In a recording studio, it's much more impersonal. I very much respond to what I can create in the hall or in the pub with the audience. I see it as an interaction. Although they're not appearing to do anything, we are interacting. I can tell by the nature of the applause or lack of it, the intensity of it or the lightness of it, they are giving me something back. I can respond to that. In a studio you're trying to get all that emotion into this emotionally dry place. I find that more difficult to do. There are very few recordings that I feel I've managed it. I often have great musicians playing but to me it's never the same. It can't be the same because I respond to people, to the audience. The song 'Winter Turns to Spring', one of Tony Benn's favourite songs. It is, he always wants me to do it at the end of the show. It is an incredibly optimistic song, the live version on the 'Writing on the Wall', the emotion comes through more than on the recorded version. Yes, I don't know how to avoid that. The recorded version is word perfect, my playing is OK but I know what you mean. I certainly have that feeling when I’m singing live and listening to myself on a record, I feel it's dry. People buying the CD, however, don't. Many people say they enjoy the CD and I'm pleased that they do. They don't know what's going on in my head. It is for me, less effective as a recording. For the person who buys the recording it's perfectly acceptable and they enjoy it, I'm pleased to say. But you should also remember you’re listening to a different performance. Cambridge was a “live� recording so you’re involved in the performance along with the audience. You hear their laughter, their silences, their applause, even the atmosphere that develops. These affect you’re emotional responses and hence what you hear and how you react. You won the 2003 live act award at the Radio 2 folk awards. I've read that you have your misgivings about awards? Yes, I do. It's just the idea that you can compare what I do, with what another person does. How does the show 'Writing on the Wall' compare with another live act? It's difficult to compare and to rate them. I'd like everyone to get an award, take six names, six awards, pick the names out of a hat. Well, almost. I'd make sure all the names were giving good value in their concerts. It's still slightly arbitrary. The fact that you won the award does please fans of your music though. People may like that a show they enjoyed is now recognised publically. That may be true, but it's no justification for the award shows. They have charts in the folk world, a “top ten� or twenty - by the number CDs has sold – but only the number sold in particular shops. 10 or 20 years later, people remember the songs that often didn't sell that much at the time, Nick Drake for example. I think that's right. There's a desire with the folk awards scene to promote folk music. I'm ambivalent about that. Yes, I want it promoted but I don't want it to lose its distinctiveness. I don't want it absorbed into the mainstream. I think the strength lies in the fact that it is independent. It could become more bland once you enter the mainstream. Commercial money becomes involved. “They� start being editors of what you do. I don't care who applauds me, no one can tell me what to sing. I got awarded the MBE, I spent ages thinking about that, worrying about it. Did it surprise you that they gave it to you? Absolutely, genuinely surprised. When Martin Carthy was informed of his MBE he rang me. Perhaps he felt the need to explain why he accepted it. I suspect he thought I would be opposed to it. I told him to enjoy it, as long as no one is seeking to control you, then enjoy it. If you're promoted and sponsored by people round the folk clubs then, why not? I know the word empire is the word that gets stuck in people’s throats. And I agree with what they say. When it came to them offering me one, I was genuinely astounded. I spoke to Tony about it. It was absolutely my decision. He commented that maybe people, the press, might take me more seriously. He's often argued that I've been ignored by the radio and the media. Do you think that? Yes, to some extent. What I'm disappointed by sometimes is that I think the folk world, the folk magazines, ignore me as well. I'm sometimes a bit saddened by that but it doesn't matter. While audiences still turn up for concerts and performances, they're the only critics I'm ultimately interested in and thankfully, they still do - in some numbers. Plus, the reason why you're an outsider is the reason why so many people are drawn to you. I think that there is a substantial audience in this country and in other countries who are attracted by that. I had letters today from people who heard me recently playing at Sidmouth, a concert with Martin Carthy and John Kirkpatrick. A great concert, I really enjoyed it, very passionate and very political. I did the 'Palestine' song. People wrote to say it was fantastic to hear somebody stand there and come out with these things: a critique of Blair, a critique of Bush, of the Palestine situation – telling the Palestine story. There are thousands, if not millions of people who want to hear that and I have tapped into that. Not deliberately - they found me and I'm grateful. I'm not about to say in order to make the cover of folk magazines I’ll start singing traditional British songs. I have this peculiar position, I am an outsider, I've chosen to be an outsider but I hate being left out. The point is, I did accept the MBE. I got a lot of stick for it, I was told it became a chatroom subject for a few days. I must admit it surprised me when I read it. Did you meet the queen? Yes I did. My line was that as long as no one seeks to edit me then I'm happy to accept it. If I get a good review in the Telegraph, should I ignore it? If I get a bad review in 'Red Pepper', should I be devastated? These things come and go. The family, overall were delighted. They saw it as a great day out. It was fun. Then Benjamin Zephaniah wrote his article a few months later about his refusal to accept the MBE. It was very powerful. I agreed with every word he said. But there's different things for different people. Well, that's true. As a black guy, he reflects on the British Empire in a way I never could. I know I benefited from that empire but I can't do anything about that. I also benefit from being a member of the most privileged people in the world: white, middle class and western. You can't get more privileged. |
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| www.tonybenn.net |
| LISTEN TO ROY BAILEY ABEIZER COPPE WINTER TURNS TO SPRING PALESTINE YOU CAN BUY 'THE WRITING ON THE WALL' CD AND OTHER ROY BAILEY CD'S |
| ROY'S WEBSITE HAS INFORMATION ABOUT FUTURE 'WRITING ON THE WALL' PERFORMANCES PLUS HIS SOLO SHOWS. YOU CAN ALSO READ HIS STATEMENT ON HANDING BACK HIS MBE IN PROTEST AT THE GOVERNMENTS STANCE ON THE MIDDLE EAST |
| USEFUL LINKS |
| ROY BAILEY |
| SKIFFLE MUSIC |
| JUDAS |
| BILLY BRAGG |
| LEON ROSSELSON |
| THE DIGGERS |
| ABEIZER COPPE |
